" Men in Open Source know that women just don't have what it takes." men, not there are some that need to be wiped out, _Men._ You are making excuses for the other when you try and say "obviously she only meant the small portion who feel this way."<br>
<br>"When I get to this point, people often say that the Open Source movement
has a history of being hostile to all new people (true), so it's not a
big deal and certainly doesn't mean they are anti-woman (false)." Right here. And here "Second, it *does* mean that their attitude has the effect of being
anti-woman (really, it has the effect of being
anti-everyone-who's-not-a-white-straight-c<div class="entry-content">is-ablebodied-man)." If it weren't for the qualifier in the second quote I might have been able to agree, but the author has clearly identified being sexist and racist as the same thing as not liking anyone. It's not the same, it shouldn't be lumped in together.<br>
<br>" You know what they bond over, in large part? Women's bodies. Tits,
how much they like them. Bitches and how crazy they are. You know,
locker room stuff. Guy culture." There are 3 or 4 good ones in here. And again, by using the term "Guy culture" she _is_ asserting that it is the majority and accepted way for men to behave. And it's wrong. You know what guys in CS bond over? _The code_. Men who engage in locker room culture tend to actually use a locker room, or go out to bars.<br>
<br>"In fact, I can't think of a woman who's made a name for herself in Open
Source as a developer. Can you?" This is stupid. How many men can you really name? Ask people the names of some notable Mozilla developers. _They don't know them._ Do you even know the last time Blake Ross actually contributed anything directly to Mozilla? <br>
</div><br>As for feeling safe, she didn't actually talk about _her own_ experiences. She was philosophizing about the general female experience. Besides that, you're now typecasting me and Tiffney when you imply that women can no longer feel safe here because we're "apologists." Are we not allowed our honest opinions? Who's not safe then?<br>
<br>_NO ONE_ deserves to be accused of prejudice undeservedly. We are _not_ coddling men by making sure we are fair in our judgments, we're being _decent human beings_.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 3:20 AM, Melissa Draper <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:melissa@meldraweb.com">melissa@meldraweb.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="im">On Tue, 2010-06-15 at 23:19 -0400, Majken Connor wrote:<br>
> Did you read the article?<br>
<br>
</div>Yes I did. It's quite accurate to my experiences.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> I'm sorry, but just because a woman says something doesn't mean she<br>
> deserves my support. That's sexist.<br>
<br>
</div>That's not what I said. Let me try again: "Way to be supportive to the<br>
women here who are reading who may have previously thought they might be<br>
able to trust this to be a place they can comment on bad behaviours and<br>
be understood. And not kicked in the face."<br>
<br>
Expecting women to be always upstanding, prim, proper, calm, courteous<br>
never ever for a single moment think of mocking the behaviour that makes<br>
her want to give up and quit lest they be considered "nuts"? *That* is<br>
sexist.<br>
<br>
I for one am always been open to people contacting me to discuss<br>
difficulties they're having as a result of possessing lady brains. If<br>
they don't feel they can trust this list (now).<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> Given the brush with which the author paints men I highly doubt she's<br>
> really interacted with many on any meaningful level.<br>
<br>
</div>I'd say she has dealt with men plenty enough if she's had time to be<br>
annoyed at the behaviour of some of them enough to have had run-ins with<br>
their apologists (you know, the women and men who generalise in attempt<br>
to excuse) giving her quotes with which to write that blog post.<br>
<br>
(Also, oh $deity, please tell me you didn't just try the pathetic "never<br>
kissed a girl" narrative...)<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> She's *wrong* about how the majority of men behave and think about<br>
> women.<br>
<br>
</div>She's compiled much of the *apologia* (aka excuses) that I see<br>
*regularly*, and spoken it as said by others, not herself. I'm pretty<br>
sure she's read my mind to get the wording the exact same way as I've<br>
seen and heard it. She's repeating the words of men *and* the words of<br>
women who defend the tokenising, objectifying, dismissive culture that<br>
reeks of misogyny (and all sorts of other marginalising). These quotes<br>
are not "blatant lies". These are actual things said. Obviously they're<br>
not spoken or believed by everyone, but as I said, I have personally<br>
seen or heard every single damned one of them verbatim in an open source<br>
context. They are real things in the world.<br>
<br>
I honestly believe that her blog rant very accurately it highlights that<br>
all the papercuts together are a lot more powerful together than they<br>
are alone. She's compiled a large portion of my actual lived experience<br>
as a feminist woman in Open Source.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> Just like she was incorrect about Blacks and Irish. She doesn't even<br>
> get the definition of sexism right.<br>
<br>
</div>I think you'll find she's not even trying to define sexism there, but<br>
rather drawing a line between sexism and other marginalised groups (like<br>
People of Colour) and touching on other elements of Kyriarchy<br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyriarchy" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyriarchy</a> such as "Intersectionality"<br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality</a> & and "Othering"<br>
<a href="http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/%7Eulrich/rww03/othering.htm" target="_blank">http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~ulrich/rww03/othering.htm</a><br>
<div class="im"><br>
> This list is about exploring the reasons and solutions to the existing<br>
> gender gap. Assuming that the only problem is that men are sexist is<br>
> in and of itself sexist.<br>
<br>
</div>She is exploring a very real and very valid reason. The Thousand<br>
Papercuts of being a Girl or Woman in Open Source.<br>
<br>
And no where in there does she say "all men". Not once. Nor does she say<br>
"majority of men" or "most men", nor "men say", nor "guys say" nor "men<br>
behave" nor "men say". Nor "men do", except in a string describing how<br>
"everyone" responds to what women do. She's documented what "everyone"<br>
and "people" are saying and doing.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> Do we care about sexism as a real problem that harms humanity or are<br>
> women the only ones who deserve protection?<br>
<br>
</div>This *is* a women's space. To ask it to be a space for discussing the<br>
nurturing of those poor men with only 90% percent representation in the<br>
community would be like asking us to protect IE because Firefox people<br>
said something about its security flaws.<br>
<br>
There's lots of things wrong within a Kyriarchy, but believe me,<br>
feminists mocking actual excuses given by *both* men and women for the<br>
continuation or alternatively non-existence of locker-room/seedy-bar<br>
behaviour and sexism *without* either stating "all men" or offering a<br>
disclaimer cookie, really is not one of them.<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
> On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 8:32 PM, Melissa Draper<br>
> <<a href="mailto:melissa@meldraweb.com">melissa@meldraweb.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> What a way to be supportive of a woman being overwhelmed by<br>
> the barriers<br>
> affecting her and venting on her blog; viciously blaming her<br>
> for all the<br>
> bad things that happen to women in a big faily waterfall of<br>
> "but what<br>
> about the men!? they are so hard done by! and oppressed! when<br>
> women<br>
> don't explicitly excuse at least some of them!".<br>
><br>
> The expectation for every criticism of patriarchy to be<br>
> accompanied by<br>
> an explicit "but this is only some men! probably not you!" is<br>
> problematic in itself. It's easy when seeing something<br>
> negative about<br>
> your demographic that contains a "not all!" disclaimer to<br>
> immediately<br>
> place yourself in the disclaimer, and refuse to change how you<br>
> personally behave. People who actually deserve those<br>
> disclaimer cookies<br>
> actually don't need them. See the law of cookies at<br>
> <a href="http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/04/29/no-cookie/" target="_blank">http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/04/29/no-cookie/</a>.<br>
><br>
> Expecting women to /unfailingly/ provide that escape from<br>
> responsibility<br>
> for men is not helpful in any way, shape, or form. It's really<br>
> just a<br>
> continuation of marginalised people being expected to excuse<br>
> bad<br>
> behaviour from privileged people in an actual conversation<br>
> lest they be<br>
> considered one of those Bad Marginalised People (you know, the<br>
> ones who<br>
> refuse to accept the blame for their own marginalisation).<br>
> We've all<br>
> been guilty of it at some point; Think of times you or your<br>
> friends<br>
> might have said "um, yeah, sure, you're not sexist" to someone<br>
> who got<br>
> all up in arms over a discussion about sexism? Even if known<br>
> to be<br>
> partial to off-colour, dehumanising or "housework is for the<br>
> women"<br>
> "jokes". Merely knowing what is sexist is not an immunisation<br>
> against<br>
> it.<br>
><br>
> I was under the impression that the purpose of this list is to<br>
> help<br>
> support women who are battling barriers, not offer excuses to<br>
> men who<br>
> might be offended at the thought that they benefit from<br>
> privilege. Is<br>
> that really too much to ask of it?<br>
><br>
> On Tue, 2010-06-15 at 10:07 -0700, Tiffney Mortensen wrote:<br>
> > Agreed. It would have been nice to see some constructive<br>
> suggestions for dealing with this issue, as well as finding<br>
> ways to connect professionally with men. Not all guys are<br>
> chest thumping frat boys. Perhaps Mozilla is unique but in<br>
> general people take gender equality for granted around here.<br>
> We don't have a full gender balance quite yet and occasionally<br>
> it can feel male-dominated, but that's more of a byproduct of<br>
> the fact that there are more male employees, rather than a<br>
> "good old boys' club."<br>
> ><br>
> > I like Katie's point about avoiding inflammatory<br>
> communication. Responding to the jerks out there with "OMG<br>
> SEXISM PATRIARCHS HATE YOUR FACES ALL OF YOU !!!1!!!!111!!!!!"<br>
> just reinforces the stereotype that women are (a) nuts (b)<br>
> less professional than men and (c) too emotional to get work<br>
> done. Venting frustration can be useful, but only if it's done<br>
> in a way that integrates humor, constructive advice, or<br>
> self-scrutiny so that others feel invited to participate in<br>
> the conversation.<br>
> ><br>
> > T<br>
> ><br>
> > ----- Original Message -----<br>
> > From: "Majken Connor" <<a href="mailto:majken@gmail.com">majken@gmail.com</a>><br>
> > To: <a href="mailto:womoz@lists.womoz.org">womoz@lists.womoz.org</a><br>
> > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2010 8:10:07 PM<br>
> > Subject: Re: [Womoz] Womoz Digest, Vol 11, Issue 10<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > I'm sorry, I didn't find this article offensive to women. I<br>
> can clearly see that the author doesn't agree with all the<br>
> stereotypes about women being incapable. However the author is<br>
> more than happy to stereotype back and includes some blatant<br>
> lies.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Kate Guernsey <<br>
> <a href="mailto:katie@mozillafoundation.org">katie@mozillafoundation.org</a> > wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Majken-<br>
> ><br>
> > It starts at "Now, you certainly don't have to be obsessive<br>
> and single-focused to actually be a good coder, but you do to<br>
> be perceived as one. So if you're a woman, you're<br>
> automatically not serious enough! Awesome, no?"<br>
> ><br>
> > goes until... "So I'm moving to DW for my feminist<br>
> principles! \o/ "<br>
> ><br>
> > And I'm not saying s/he is speaking to other females. I'm<br>
> saying s/he is speaking to the "majority of her colleagues"<br>
> which we know to be mostly male. My anecdote about how I<br>
> relate to men at times illustrates this pretty clearly. Read<br>
> it again (and my message) and I think you'll see it...<br>
> especially when she (I'm betting it's a woman) relates to<br>
> being linked to "Dorothea of Caveat Lector."<br>
> ><br>
> > We can all agree it's poorly written... but we should<br>
> recognize that she is using a communication style that is<br>
> pervasive in her network. Perhaps that can be a point of<br>
> departure at Whistler... attempt to change inflammatory<br>
> communication!<br>
> ><br>
> > Katie<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
><br>
> Melissa Draper<br>
><br>
> w: <a href="http://meldraweb.com" target="_blank">http://meldraweb.com</a> & <a href="http://geekosophical.net" target="_blank">http://geekosophical.net</a><br>
><br>
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<br>
<br>
</div></div>--<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5">Melissa Draper<br>
<br>
w: <a href="http://meldraweb.com" target="_blank">http://meldraweb.com</a> & <a href="http://geekosophical.net" target="_blank">http://geekosophical.net</a><br>
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