[Womoz] Womoz Digest, Vol 11, Issue 10

[Majken Connor]

Leigh,

Thank you for your reply. I think unless we ask the author herself all any
of us are doing is interpreting with a bias towards our past experiences.
I'm afraid I can't be so lenient in giving the author the benefit of the
doubt. I think this turns into the "apologizing" that Tiffney and I have
been accused of. I agree with pretty much everything you're saying, however
it's a bit of a different context given that we didn't just come upon it, it
was presented to the list as something "interesting." This is the angle that
I, and I believe Tiffney, are basing our criticism from.  I'd love to hear
about experiences like these, and talk about them in a more scientific
manner - trying to pinpoint what breeds this type of experience,
establishing whether it's really the majority opinion (which I'm certain
it's not) and how to change attitudes. I just can't abide fighting sexism
with sexism. As is plain, even us women don't agree on the context and
bounds of the problem, so it stands to reason that men are even more
helpless when it comes to defining and changing the problem.

-Majken

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Leigh Honeywell <leigh at hypatia.ca> wrote:

> On 10-06-16 02:46 PM, Majken Connor wrote:
>
>> " Men in Open Source know that women just don't have what it takes."
>> men, not there are some that need to be wiped out, _Men._  You are
>> making excuses for the other when you try and say "obviously she only
>> meant the small portion who feel this way."
>>
>> "When I get to this point, people often say that the Open Source
>> movement has a history of being hostile to all new people (true), so
>> it's not a big deal and certainly doesn't mean they are anti-woman
>> (false)." Right here. And here "Second, it *does* mean that their
>> attitude has the effect of being anti-woman (really, it has the effect
>> of being anti-everyone-who's-not-a-white-straight-c
>> is-ablebodied-man)." If it weren't for the qualifier in the second quote
>> I might have been able to agree, but the author has clearly identified
>> being sexist and racist as the same thing as not liking anyone. It's not
>> the same, it shouldn't be lumped in together.
>>
>> " You know what they bond over, in large part? Women's bodies. Tits, how
>> much they like them. Bitches and how crazy they are. You know, locker
>> room stuff. Guy culture." There are 3 or 4 good ones in here. And again,
>> by using the term "Guy culture" she _is_ asserting that it is the
>> majority and accepted way for men to behave.  And it's wrong. You know
>> what guys in CS bond over? _The code_. Men who engage in locker room
>> culture tend to actually use a locker room, or go out to bars.
>>
>> "In fact, I can't think of a woman who's made a name for herself in Open
>> Source as a developer. Can you?"  This is stupid.  How many men can you
>> really name? Ask people the names of some notable Mozilla developers.
>> _They don't know them._ Do you even know the last time Blake Ross
>> actually contributed anything directly to Mozilla?
>>
>> As for feeling safe, she didn't actually talk about _her own_
>> experiences. She was philosophizing about the general female experience.
>> Besides that, you're now typecasting me and Tiffney when you imply that
>> women can no longer feel safe here because we're "apologists." Are we
>> not allowed our honest opinions? Who's not safe then?
>>
>> _NO ONE_ deserves to be accused of prejudice undeservedly. We are _not_
>> coddling men by making sure we are fair in our judgments, we're being
>> _decent human beings_.
>>
>
> Majiken,
>
> I really feel like you need to adjust your sarcasm meters here.  Most of
> that essay is /clearly/ hyperbole and snark.  Expecially the "omg there are
> no women who are famous for code!" line.  It's obviously, patently false,
> and both she and you know it.   HOWEVER it's something that I've certainly
> heard SOME men say.  Some != all, of course.
>
> And again with the part about lumping in "being sexist and racist" with
> "being a jerk to people".  Read that again.  She's talking about how the
> "but I'm an asshole to everyone" excuse tends to affect people differently
> if they are not part of the vast straight white cis bulk of Free Software
> developers.  Not that anyone in particular is racist or sexist or
> transphobic or whatever, but that peoples' experiences are different.
>
> That said, her description on "guy culture" in CS certainly rings true to
> my experience at Carleton U and the University of Toronto.  That it's hers
> and mine doesn't make your different experience invalid!
>
> Just about everything in her essay describes an attitude I've personally
> experienced, or had my immediate circle of friends experience.  OF COURSE
> not all dudes are like this.  And hey, some women are like this too!
>  Internalized sexism is always fun to run up against as well.
>
> I agree that no-one deserves to be subject to prejudice.  But someone
> processing their experiences somewhat angrily isn't the place to freak out
> about exactly how she's doing it, I think.  She's not trying to send some
> Great Message To the Men of Free Software with that post; she's trying to
> work through her feelings about it.
>
> I hope that adds some light to this conversation.
>
> Be well,
>
> -Leigh
>
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